John: Thank you
for taking the time to talk with me today.
So up until your most recent book, they tended to cover topics from the deeper
end of the theological pool (so to speak), but your new book is about marriage.
What influenced that transition?
Mark: Yeah, I
started the church when I was 25, so I’ve been pastoring Mars Hill for 15 years
now. I was still a new Christian, still figuring out where I was at on a whole
lot of issues. I didn’t become a Christian until I was 19 and I didn’t actually
go to seminary and get a formal theological education until our church was
quite large. So for those early years it was a lot of work, preaching, teaching,
trying to study on my own and figure out just what I thought about things; to come
to my own conclusions. So yeah, my writing reflected that. Also early-on, I was
part of a young leaders movement that then morphed into the emerging church and
such and I didn’t agree theologically with some things that were happening
there, so I felt I needed to clarify: I love these people, but I disagree on
these issues. Where I’m at right now is I’m still a pastor and I love being a pastor.
I intend to spend my whole ministry career preaching and teaching in the local
church. Most of my time is not spent untying theological knots [though], it’s
spent helping hurting people. And so with [Real
Marriage] I kinda said what I believe and then I wanted to talk about how
those beliefs apply to life, making that theology really practical. So the
marriage book was the first venture in that direction. I’m actually working on
my next book which is going to be on identity in Christ. [It will address] who
we are in Christ, how that impacts our relationships with God and people, and
how we view ourselves and our sin. So my writing for the foreseeable future is still
going to be rooted in deep theological convictions, but super, super practical,
more like counseling sessions that I’d have with people.
JOHN: The books
that you’ve written in the past have been welcomed with open arms by many, but
have also brought some criticism to you as a pastor and author. How have you
dealt with that?
Mark: I think for
me the point of the book is to help people, so that’s why Grace and I wrote it.
We’re really encouraged by the
feedback that we’re getting: that it
is practical and helpful. Like I said, there’s still a lot of Jesus, Bible and
theology in there. I’m willing to endure some criticism from those who wish it
was a theology of marriage. But I think there already are some really good
books on a theology of marriage, so I didn’t feel that there was a need for another one of those. Quite
frankly, there are also some good books on practical issues regarding marriage,
and so we felt there was a need to contribute on some more modern issues,
things that younger people are asking, also helping singles to think through
their future. Ya know, I don’t want to spend the rest of my life trying to win
arguments with my critics, I’m an evangelist at heart. I want to see people meet
Jesus. I want to see lives get changed. I want to see families be helped,
marriages be saved. That’s why I’m still a local church pastor. I kind of
expected [the criticism] to be honest with you. I think anytime you’re talking
about gender and sex you’re really putting the hose on the bees’ nest to some
degree. No matter what you say, there’s going to be some real controversy
around that. But I think overall it’s been healthy and good. It’s forced
discussion around certain things. [I’m] just trying to focus on reaching
people, serving people, helping people – that’s really where the bulk of the energy’s
gone. So I’m not reading a bunch of my critics or trying to respond to them.
Trying not to get obsessed with that.
JOHN: Because
this topic is different than what you’ve explored in the past, did you feel
different while writing it? Obviously this was the first book you’ve written
with Grace…
Mark: Yeah, it
felt a little more… vulnerable. I think it’s easier for me to make a point and
tell you what I believe, then not have to talk about who I am, sins I’ve
committed, things I’m working through, ways I need to be sanctified by God’s
grace. It’s a little more honest, humbling, risk-taking. I definitely felt that
writing with Grace. She’s really brave in the book – sharing parts of her story
that were difficult. Particularly when it’s your wife and you’re working with
her – exposing her to criticism and the nit-picking of some – there’s some
stress with that for sure.
JOHN: Were either
of you surprised by the other one during this process – how you tackled certain
topics? Or was it more like ‘we’ve encountered this in our marriage and
practically written this book as we went along’ and now this was just the
actual physical product?
Mark: [The two of
us] had talked and worked through issues for a number of years, and then through
counseling other people and helping (especially) ministry leaders, families,
marriages… It felt like we’ve said this enough privately, it’s probably time to
write it down publicly. But as we were working on the book the one thing that
kinda snuck up on us – that we weren’t expecting – was the whole big idea of
friendship. Once we hit that it was a really big concept for us – it’s been
super helpful and really transforming in our marriage. That was the one thing
we didn’t necessarily have nailed down as we sat down to write, it just kinda
happened as we were hanging out, talking, praying and working on the project
together. That big idea just kind of exploded: the idea of friendship in
marriage.
JOHN: What is the
main thing that you’re hoping people will walk away with from this book?
Mark: Well, for
those who are single, we want them to take their singleness seriously and not
settle for somebody who is not appropriate to be married to; not to settle for
sin. Also, to look at their parents’ marriage – family of origin stuff – see if
there’s anything that they need to learn from or reconsider, that has
negatively affected them before they get into marriage. For those who are married,
Grace and I really wanted couples to have deep, ongoing, grace-centered, loving
conversations, and not to just settle for a functional marriage – ya know –
good enough but not great. Our real goal was just to get couples to talk.
Bloggers and critics and book reviewers can talk to one another, [but] really
the goal is that husbands and wives would be the ones having the conversations.
JOHN: That’s
awesome. Alright, we’re going to ask you some really personal questions now… What
movie have you seen recently purely for entertainment, or because it had a
really great message?
Mark: Oh boy,
I’ve been so busy lately I haven’t seen a lot of films!
JOHN: …But you
are the pastor that always talks about movies! Have you been watching less?
Mark: Oh no, I
have two DVRs, so I watch a ton of TV. (Probably more TV than I should.) Ya
know, Grace and I went to see (this is going to sound a little cheesy maybe,
but) Courageous because she wanted to
go see it. I liked the big idea of the movie, man, guys loving their families
and standing up for justice. Even though it was a little predictable [of a] plotline
I liked it, I thought it was cool. So there ya go, there’s the big shout out
for Courageous. We went and saw the
recent Mission Impossible movie too…
It’s really time to put that series to rest (laughs) – they’ve cut everything
they can out of it. I saw Moneyball on
a flight recently and I really liked that because I’m a huge baseball fan. I
thought it was one of the best baseball movies I’ve ever seen. [SPOILER] I
liked the fact that he turned down the money to go to Boston so that he could stay near his
daughter. I thought that was awesome.
JOHN: Music, what
are you listening to?
Mark: Um, what am
I listening to lately…? Hmmm… The Decemberists, old Social Distortion, let me
pull up my iTunes player right here and I’ll tell you what’s recent. Interpol,
Jimmy Eat World, some old Smiths (I guess I’m getting old), The Killers – but
that’s my kids more. It’s always hard, ya know, my kids play all of this music
too so I end up listening to theirs… I like The Forecast – this little band out
of Chicago,
I’ve been listening to them a lot.
JOHN: How old are
your kids?
Mark: Five kids:
3 boys, 2 girls: ages kindergarten to freshman in high school… (pauses, still
thinking about music). Ya know I’m also listening to a lot of the bands in Mars
Hill. A lot of the stuff’s indy rock around here man, it’s all Death Cab for
Cutie, Decemberists, Dustin Kensrue goes to the church so I end up listening to
a lot of Thrice – I love Dustin a lot.
JOHN: We have
reason to remember quite a few mentions in past sermons that you were “jacked
up on Red Bull.” Is that still part of your repertoire?
Mark: I am aging
in dog years – I mean, it’s brutal. At certain times in the church’s history I
would preach 7 times a Sunday, across three locations. You know, I’d go for an
hour and ten minutes a pop, really high velocity, and then we cut it down to 4
or 5 [services]. So I would leave the house Sunday morning at 7 AM and not get
home until about 10 or 11 PM and then stay up until about 2 AM – and I did that
for 15 years. To be honest with you, physically, that is not a good idea
(laughs). So you start using caffeine and energy drinks to push you through. But
then you start breaking your adrenal glands and your neurotransmitters, at
least that’s what I found so, man, I have made some pretty serious dietary
changes and [started] watching those energy levels. I’m 41; I don’t want to be
one of those guys that burns himself out too early. So yeah, I’ve pulled back
quite a bit. I preach twice usually on the Sundays I preach, and I’ve not
touched an energy drink in a couple of years now.
JOHN: Good for
you. Alright, one more question, what do you and Grace do to relax?
Mark: Ya know,
this is going to sound simple, but I like to hold my wife’s hand, go for a walk
and just visit with her. We do date night, we go out to dinner and we get our
time together. Last week we were doing an event down in Orange County,
so we went over to LA and spent a full day there – I took her shopping and we
stayed overnight. So we do that kinda stuff, but I like just hanging out with Grace.
Man, if I can just hold her hand and go for a walk for an hour, see how she’s
doing… I’m enjoying that for sure.
JOHN: Mark,
thanks so much for your time – it’s honestly so great talking with you.
Mark: No problem,
thanks.
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